Middle Nation Book Discussion | Propaganda by Jacques Ellul: Chapter 1(Part Two)

Okay. Once again. So, today, we will be talking about part two, of the book of well, of chapter one, and part two talks about internal characteristics of propaganda. Right? I do have some notes and, you know, some dis discussion points.

But firstly, would anybody like to offer their impression of this particular section of the book and, you know, what they thought about it? Or perhaps we can we can, you know, talk about some in individual points, you know, that are are interesting. So okay. To to kick off, in one of the earliest paragraphs, the the author talks about the psychological terrain of of a particular, you know, society and how for propaganda to be effective, the propagandists needs to understand the certain, you know, the sociological presuppositions and myths. Right?

And in one paragraph, he he says the following and I and I quote, the myth expresses the deep inclinations of a society. Without it, the masses would not cling to a certain civilization civilization or its process of development and crisis. It is a vigorous impulse, strongly colored, irrational, and charged with all of man's power to believe. It contains a religious element. In our society, the two great fundamental myths on which all of the myths rest are science and history.

And based on them are the collective myths that are man's principle orientations. The myth of work, the myth of happiness, which is not the same thing as the presupposition of happiness, the myth of the nation, the myth of youth, and the myth of hero. So based on this, can you discern any examples of propaganda that that you can see in your respective societies and how it it, you know, plays on these these particular myths.

Well, I, you know, I can say this from personal experience growing up in The United States. When I was in fifth grade, this is when I was the year I was nine, and the second half of the year, I turned 10. But you talk about myths. We had drills in my classroom where we were, made to get underneath of our desk. This was and it's it's just so ridiculous, but this was in case a, of a bomb attack that this is how you would protect yourself by getting under the desk, including a nuclear strike from the Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics, the Soviet Union.

And this was a regular part of the school day across The United States. And so people of my generation, you know, and and older had these, underneath the desk exercises. You had to show you could duck your body and head in particular completely underneath of your desk. We were shown films that I recognize now were were just purely American propaganda. But in the films, it showed what a wonderful person Chiang Kai shek and his followers were and what terrible people Mao Zedong and his followers were and how The United States was on the side of the freedom loving Chinese and the communist Chinese were the the enemies.

I mean, literally, they showed us films they had made of this, and these these were not, fictional films. This was news footage and documentary footage that they showed us. And I remember sitting there looking at one one day. And as an example of the good Chinese, they were showing this rickshaw driver pulling a white woman with a fur wrapped around her neck and a big hat on, through the streets of Beijing. And right away, that's when I recognized that this is what my father had told me, you know, about when he was teaching us a little something about propaganda.

And, I came to realize everyone everyone has it, and it is. It's wrapped around the myths that, operate in your society. And at that time, one of the major myths of the American society was that good nonwhite people served white people, and you didn't have to make that statement verbally because it was a visual narrative in the, kinds of documentaries, the news reports, the films that, we saw.

So I I do have a question about that. You know, from from our point of view, I mean, looking back at it today, obviously, it is, you know, pretty obvious propaganda. Do you think that over the years, has become more sophisticated in America to the modern, you know, eye?

Or has it

been, you know, blatant?

Well, it depends on the viewpoint of the viewer. Things that I might consider blatant, other people may barely notice or not notice at all. So I think for the vast majority of the American populace, they are waking up to the fact of, American propaganda for the first time. And I'm talking about the masses of people. This is brand new.

As a society, we have willingly lived under US propaganda without recognizing that, of course, The United States has propaganda too because the word was framed. The meaning of the word propaganda has always been framed here as something countries that are against America do as opposed to telling their people the truth, and that's literally what the word propaganda has always meant in The United States. But the American people are so upset with their leaders, both in business and government now. There's there's just a massive awakening that, oh gosh, golly gee whiz. Maybe we've been lied to, and maybe we've been lied to the whole time, and that's one of the major problems that we're facing as a society right now.

People are waking up to that.

Yeah. I believe so as well. Okay. So that's one example of American propaganda. We are a diverse group here.

Would anybody like to maybe present a home example in their own country, you know, their own society? Karin, you unmuted for a second, but do you have a problem?

Just thinking, like, I I don't think there's any specific. It's just like this

Mhmm.

Yeah. Normal neoliberal western propaganda. Right? It's, like, all under the same umbrella, whether it's

Well, I I have a question for you because your your background is Egyptian. Right? Yeah.

I lived there for a long time.

So could you perhaps give us an example of how it works in Egypt in relation to the myths we we we talked about?

I'm thinking, to be honest, like, I don't know if it's based on any, like, particular belief. It's just, you know, half of the country, it doesn't that the best thing is the army, and the other half just doesn't like the army. And from there, it all stems because, like, it's kind of a military based country. So, you know, either have people who then exactly is this this point. Right?

Like, the propaganda of the army is probably good, I would say. So all of the people who do not believe in that, you know, basic myth that the army is good view it all as, you know, negative propaganda. On the other hand, they listen to different propaganda. Right? Like, it's either you are for the army or you're you're against the army, essentially, I feel.

Like, from what I when I lived there and what I see after the revolution and so on.

So in the, you know, in in the pop culture, do you have anti or pro pro army views?

Again, the I think it depends a lot on the family you're from. Uh-huh. Like, if your family is, you know, leaning towards the military, only you'll probably have the same views. If your country is, like, kinda against you know, your family is against this. So you will have different view.

Like, it's really based on the environment that you grew up in because I feel like, you know, part of my family, I can see it in in my own family. Right? Like, you have members who are completely against, and then you have members who love it. So

Mhmm. So it is a dividing issue, basically, in Egypt.

Yeah. It is to a certain degree, to be honest.

Okay. Okay. Interesting. Selma, would you like to

Yeah. I I'm I am I'm not sure if I can directly contribute to what you're asking for as in, you know, like, examples because I'm learning so much as I'm reading about these methods of propaganda. And it's it's a it's difficult not not difficult. I I think, you know, you wish there were practical examples that you can simultaneously view, like case studies that you can refer to as he points out these various forms of, you know, exercising propaganda and what is and what is not propaganda. That's why I feel like, you know, like, I I'm just absorbing the information and I'm handicapped by the fact that I don't have examples to to reference every point that he thinks about in the in the book.

And like, in the case of like, what Karim talks about in the the Egyptian arm, like, does it matter if if there's white broad acceptance of the army? I mean, regardless, you know, the dynamic that brings that brought the army to power is is I mean, it's just inevitable. Like it or not, business wants it to be in power. That's why it's where it is. You know, it serves the interest of the IMF.

It serves the interest of the structural reforms and the regulations that they want implemented. So the army is willing to serve their interest, and so they are there. It doesn't matter what what the public thinks, you know. So I don't know if there's a necessity in in in for for for the army to have a PR element to it as part of a propaganda. You know, I I I I I'm still trying to understand here, you know, how this is applied. Applied.

Yeah. They have this propaganda, like, army that it's essentially for the people. Right? They have this you know, they draw these murals or whatever they call it on the walls, right, how the army man is giving the bread to the poor woman. Right?

They have this social aspect of propaganda as if, like, that without the army, you know, you wouldn't have bread. Right? They have this, like, you are essentially dependent on us. Right? And it gives them this sense of entitlement and, you know, economics and politics.

Okay. I'm not sure. My my Internet connection isn't great, but I'll give it a try. In terms of the of course, the army in Egypt or in any other country, Pakistan or anywhere else, the army, you know, has the power to force its control and domination over the society. But it is certainly much, much easier, if you have the goodwill and, popular approval of the people, of the population.

It makes it much easier. And I think this is this is why I said what I said earlier this week or or last week, in the chat, that everyone should recognize that propaganda is an absolutely essential element in running and, controlling and organizing a very large and diverse population of people. It's it's absolutely essential. It can't It it It's it's not feasible, to have any sort of major national project when you don't have some degree of, of engineering in terms of the way people think and their their approval or disapproval of this or that and their acceptance of the government and their approval of the government and so on. So, you know, yes, theoretically, an army can force its, force it itself on the population, force its domination, and enforce its authority through violence.

But how feasible is that on the long term? How tenable is that on the long term? I mean, you have even even even in countries like Egypt or, say, the, Iran under the Shah or the Soviet Union and so on, well, they had they had armies. You didn't have, you know, generally mass killings of people. The the the enforcement through force, and through violence was usually through the intelligence services and the secret police and so on where they could just, identify what they regarded as key individuals or key organizations that they regarded as dissident and, subversive and so on, and and they would deal with those.

So I think that that, you know, thinking that just because, the army or the state or whatever has a monopoly on violence and has the ability to, to, enforce its authority over the people, that means that propaganda is superfluous. No. It it certainly isn't. You have to psychologically and mentally pacify the people and get the people organized. Now that you you almost can't talk about this.

Like sister Ahida said, you almost can't talk about propaganda without it sounding very nefarious, and diabolical. But I'm I I I maintain that it is act an an absolutely essential, factor in in running a society. So in a in a country like Egypt or, like I said, Pakistan or anywhere else, whether whether the military basically runs the country, it's it's it's even more essential for them to exercise propaganda as much as possible because on the face of it, it's illegitimate in most people's opinion. On the face of it, it will be illegitimate that that the army just controls the the the country, and there's no semblance of popular will. So you have to at least create a popular will that approves of the army, that approves of the government, so that so that it gives a veneer of legitimacy to the authorities because at the end of the day, authority does rely to one extent or another upon the approval of the population.

Well, you know, on on on that note, I I do believe that as as much as I hate to admit it personally that the the propaganda employed in in the region where I live in is truly essential because especially if if you live in a society where, you know, people are trying to figure out their national identity and they are trying to protect their borders. They're trying to maintain a level of cohesion in society. I I do understand, I mean, why the authorities do it. And, you know, I as an individual might load it and I don't particularly like when facing it, you know, blatant propaganda. But, you know, probably it serves a higher higher cause.

So, yeah, I I do agree with that actually. So it is a hard pill to swallow for many people. But, you know, looking back on it, if you didn't have it in most countries, you would have chaos, you would have, you know, strife, you would have all sorts of different different conflicts. Right? So

You know, I would I would also add. I'm not I I don't I'm not defending propaganda. I'm just I'm just acknowledging the reality of its necessity in a in particularly in a very large society. But there's there's another element of that, which is that when the state depends on a certain style of propaganda about itself towards the population, it it also inadvertently but unavoidably confines itself by its own propaganda in that you can't, act towards the propagandized population completely at odds completely at odds with the propaganda that you give them. There has to be some element in which you the state itself will align in one way or another with the propaganda.

Because propaganda, that is completely false, just completely 100% false, is not very persuasive. There has to be some element of factuality. There has to be some element of truth. It has to touch upon some vein of experience in people for it to resonate. So, like, for example, the the the army in Egypt, for example, isn't 100 bad.

They do many important and useful things for the population and they are, to one extent or another, confined to the to the net to the necessity of them actually serving the population in one degree or another. Now, of course, the propaganda will drastically exaggerate the goodness and beneficence of the army as any state will do about itself. But it still has to practice to one degree or another some, some extent of beneficence towards the population because that's the character that they have presented. So even just for PR purposes, they will have to, provide examples of their goodness and their charitableness and their whatever the case may be. Whatever virtues that they assign to themselves, they do have to practice it on some level, so that it can so that even just so that they can use that as an example of how wonderful they are.

Yeah. Exactly. And he talks about that. Right? Like, that propaganda cannot be based on lies, right, essentially.

Like, it's about the interpretations. Right? And, you know, how you present it in a manner. But, like, it has to be based on truth, right, which is kinda interesting for you.

Yeah.

I I just wanna say I I think it's really an astute analysis that is just mentioned about the fact that you cannot expect to keep a large diverse population in check essentially if there is not propaganda. And there also needs to be some truth to the propaganda. Right now, and I could be wrong, I've never been to Egypt, I've never lived there, I have had friends who lived there for years and, told me, about it extensively. But I think right now, what is going on in The United States maybe versus, Muslim nations is that increasingly and and just let me give this as a backdrop, The appropriations for what we call defense, is over $800,000,000,000 every year. The US spends more on its military than everywhere else on the planet combined almost.

And, so our military is extremely powerful, but because of our national propaganda, it has only recently come into question by the majority populace who have begun to ask, do we really need to spend this much money on the military, what are they doing with it? Why do we have all of these expenditures, you know, when we are not being bombed, but we are bombing other people, none of whom are bombing or have bombed, you know, us as a nation. So that's a a big question happening, but I get a sense. And, again, I I just could be totally wrong, but I get a sense that the militaries in Muslim nations, though they are repressive because that's the nature, I believe, of military. You know, it's a force, and it employs force.

That's why it exists. But I get an impression that the people, the leadership of those militaries, do have an actual affinity for their nation and the peoples in their nation. And I believe what is happening here in The United States is that the American people are beginning to question whether or not that is true with our military, with our military leaders, and and sometimes even amongst the rank and file because of some of the scandals that have been revealed in the past twenty, twenty five years. And, I think we're we're really at, like, a dangerous point that I have not previously seen in this country. And and now I'll be quiet and let other people speak.

Thank you, Actually, I'd I'd like to to move on to the second second quote that I selected, and it has to do with what wrote in, in the chat. So I'll I'll just, read the very short quote, and then, perhaps we can discuss it together. So the author says, propaganda does not aim to elevate man but to make himself. It must therefore utilize the most common feelings, the most widespread ideas, the crudest patterns, and in so doing, place itself on a very low level with regard to what it wants man to do and to what end. Hate, hunger, and pride make better leavers of propaganda than do love or impartiality.

So what do we think about this, and, can we present any concrete examples to back up the claim?

Well, I mean, if if you look at, the propaganda around the present war on Gaza here here in The United States, those people who advocate against war and advocate negotiation and working things out and peace and loving your neighbor are being horrifically, excuse me, attacked and mocked in, the popular media and those people who advocate a continuation of the genocide as a form of defense against something for the whole Western world, those people are edified in the, general news media propaganda. So I I think that this is true. It's just that, here in The United States, people's hearts are literally changing, and so those people putting out the propaganda have a difficult time now addressing the change in the hearts of Americans. But the propaganda the the positive propaganda has certainly gone toward warmongers and against peace lovers.

Well, in the case of, you know, pro Palestinian propaganda, don't you think that we also have this element of, you know, of evoking negative feelings? Because what I've also noticed, some of the influences, they try to emphasize the bloodthirsty aspect of Zionism, for example, you know, the colonial exploitation. Like, these are elements of propaganda that evoke in us fear, anger, you know, hatred. I I think they're doing a great job, actually. Because, like, if you always focus on the loving Palestinians, it's not really going to work, is it?

This is easily evoked because we have facts. You know, we have historical facts. So that that's like, saying, well, the the negative propaganda that the civil rights movement put out against people who lynched innocent black people, you know, so on and so on. So I I think where you have something that's that's quite clear cut. I mean, in over there, they color code the license plates so that the authorities, the armed authorities, can distinguish whether or not a car is owned by an Arab or a Jew.

Or a The license plates are color coded so they know, oh, don't shoot at that car. It's got the Jewish license plate color. Shoot at that car even though it's got six kids in it, you know, because it's got the Palestinian color license plate. I mean, the the no one in history has ever done stuff like they have done. No one in recorded human history.

So I I think that, yes, it's propaganda, but these are instances where the propaganda is based on reality, factual proven reality.

Yeah. Well, I I don't actually deny that. I'm I'm just saying that you you can you can use facts like you said, you know, to to make the case. But I do I do agree with you that probably focus

Well, think I didn't sorry sorry to interrupt, but No. I think I think this is a really good this I think this is a really good example. The case of Zionism is a really good example of how untenable and unviable it is for long for the long term for your propaganda to be completely contradictory to reality, to have no no element of truth in it at all. And that's the case with Zionism. The what what Israel has said about itself and what America has helped Israel say about itself and the way that America has covered for Israel for all these decades in the popular media.

Because, again, as we see now, Israel is not actually very good at propaganda. So they've had a lot of help in putting their case forward to the to the people and making people think a certain kind of way about Israel. That now with, particularly with social media and independent media, citizen journalists, individual journalists, so on, people just with their mobile phones. It's exposing the extent to which the propaganda about Israel is completely the polar opposite from the reality. So, exposing the the the facts about Israel, the facts about, Zionist colonization in Palestine, serves a propaganda function, but it it isn't in and of itself propaganda, in my opinion.

It's just actually exposing the truth. It's counterpropaganda in terms of countering the propaganda of the Zionists and the Americans, with factual reality. It serves a propaganda function because it does activate and motivate people to do something about it, but it it it really reveals, how, unfeasible it is for you to make a propaganda about yourself, about your country, about your state, or about your project, whatever the case may be, that is completely at odds with the with the reality. You can only manage that when there is no access to information at all, when no one has any access to information. And so, for example, when someone travels to Israel, they have a they even even that in and of itself is a negative propaganda for Israel.

When when American citizens go to go to Israel or European citizens or whatever, non Jews, who go to Israel to visit, they almost universally have a bad experience with Israelis. They have a bad experience at the airport. They have a bad experience with individual Israelis that they meet and things that they see, that that startle them. And but but that was that was that was there was only a trickle of information and people would could could, dis dismiss it as anecdotal, you know, a one off sort of sort of thing. But now, it's exposed to the world, everything that they're doing and everything that they've been doing.

And, the fact that it's been a lie, you know, for all these years, for all these decades, that it's just been a lie, the facts are are being revealed. And what Israel has said about itself, the propaganda that they made about itself, is completely at odds with the reality. And you can't afford for the reality to to ever, pervade in the public. And, you know, once that once that happens, your your project is over, and and no one is gonna believe you propaganda again. Like I said, you can see how weak the Zionists actually are, in terms of propaganda and in terms of PR.

It's just breathtakingly bad. They have no way to respond. They have no they have no defense. They have no counter propaganda. They're just relying on the same tropes that they've always relied on.

And every time they speak, it just makes it worse because it they're just continuing to to spout the same, propaganda that everyone can see now is completely, opposed to the reality. So I think that, it we have to differentiate a little bit because what what what you're describing is people telling the truth, and it has a propaganda function. Telling the truth has a propaganda function, but, it's it's it's not propaganda in and of itself what they're doing. They're just exposing the reality.

So I'm a little bit confused here, because I in in, like, in my mind, propaganda as as as a word, It is just a way of influencing people to to act a certain way. Like, is it always necessarily, like, nefarious, like you said?

Or It's it's it's I think I think that I think that it's been a a while since I read how Alul described it, but I think it has to do with getting people to act in a way that they wouldn't otherwise if they didn't have propaganda. You know what I mean? It it activates, myths and prejudices that they may have, but they may not act upon otherwise. And, even even emotions that they might have, and and it it activates it in an it activates it artificially. Whereas the the reaction that we're seeing from people who are who are just now coming to understand the reality of of what's going on in Palestine, for example.

That's just a perfectly normal natural human reaction, that's not really being manipulated. It's it's not it's not really a form of manipulation for people to be exposed to the to the truth.

So we can differentiate between, like, natural activism and propaganda, basically?

Well, I I suppose so. I mean, like I said, what what what what, activists are doing in terms of spreading information about what's going on in Gaza, it serves a propaganda function. But what they're doing is just telling the truth. What they're doing is just reporting on the facts. And what they're doing is, correcting the, the miss the the the misunderstanding or the the deliberately, distorted view that they have been given all their lives about Palestine and Israel.

So, you know, they're they're as I said, it it serves a propaganda function in that it's it's providing information to to people to motivate them to act in a certain way, and that's fulfilling a propaganda function. But what they're doing is just telling the truth. I I would say I would say I would say another I would say an an element of propaganda that you would see from the pro Palestinian side that is much closer to propaganda in the way we classically understand propaganda would be the legitimately antisemitic elements that you see in some pro Palestinian propaganda. Like, you know, talking about the Jews are just like this. This The Jews are just evil.

The Jews are just this and that and the other and the Jews control everything and, you know, all of the all of the various antisemitic tropes that that are coming out of the woodwork, within the pro Palestinian rhetoric.

Mhmm.

These are these are elements of, that are that are more classically aligned with how Elul talks about propaganda because they are deeply held beliefs that people have, deeply held prejudices that people have, and the lower elements in their nature, that are being activated ostensibly for for a good cause, but they but it it it's something in and of itself that is not a positive thing.

Absolutely. Yeah. Well You Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

I didn't see you.

Well, I I was just going to, say that, the anti Jewish propaganda is so strong in, white Christian western nations, I'm not even sure that the, anti Jewish propaganda that comes, out of the more extreme elements, of the Palestinians is their own. You know? I I think they essentially, picked up, what is in the air that is constantly in the air, that emanates from, white western countries. I mean, the the beliefs that a lot of, white Christian people have about Jews are ridiculous. You can't claim to believe in God and then believe that the whole earth is controlled by people who out of 8,000,000,000 people, there's only 15,000,000 of them throughout the world.

I I mean, if if that is so, then the god that you believe in has completely abdicated his responsibility. I mean, I I I don't understand how people can possibly believe these things, but they they're absolutely deeply held. They're as deeply held beliefs amongst those people as one plus one equals two. And you cannot show them, tell them, present otherwise, because they will believe that you are brainwashed by the Jews. I mean, we had a congresswoman, and she won reelection, and brother Shahid might know who I'm about to talk about.

But we had a congresswoman who is from Georgia say that the Jews were controlling the weather with space lasers. This is not a Jew. And it was NTG, Marjorie Taylor Green, the one who was involved in the the dust up recently in a public congressional hearing in our capital where where two or three congresswomen publicly during a hearing engaged in attacking each other's physical appearances, and the men didn't know what to do. They were witnessing a catfight, so to speak, though no one threw any blows, but that's the next step. I thought I would never live to see professional women speak and behave this way in a public setting that's being filmed where where they're representing hundreds of thousands of constituencies.

Is is just devolving here in this country, so low with the culture. Amazing. That these are the kinds of things. She said this on camera. She wasn't even ashamed to say this because she believes it.

Her husband has now divorced her. She's lost a marriage over, you know, her being so extreme. But she you know, these people, they're just crazy as bedbugs when it comes to Jews. And I personally believe having lived here my whole life and having lived among them and whatnot, that part of the reason, part of it, that white Christians have such antipathy toward Jews is because they view Jews as being too educationally and economically successful, and they don't understand how the people who rejected Jesus, you know, could could become so successful. So to them, this is a sign of evil.

You know, those people must be backed by the devil because that's why, they make more money per year than I do. And, it's it's really, really bad.

Really? So that's what they believe, really.

Well, yeah. It's very deep.

I really keep trying to tell you. There is no claim that instead has made against America and The United States that is even remotely hyperbole. I live here, and you I keep trying to emphasize. You simply cannot imagine because American propaganda is so good. You know?

Oh, American freedom. And you have no idea the level of craziness we are. These are our legislators. These are our leaders. Half of them are certifiable.

If they were examined by psychiatrists, the psychiatrists would say commit them. They need help.

I would think I I I would I would argue, also that in terms of the the pro Palestinian, I don't know, sharing of information is a bit different from propaganda in terms of the way Alul looks at it, and the way we generally understand propaganda, it's it's systematic. Propaganda should be systematic. And it should be the it's generally going to be coming from some sort of an institution, some sort of a group, or the government itself, and so on. And and and and it's it's approaching a systematic way to achieve some kind of a psychological state, in in a in a large segment of the population or the total population. What what's happening with information about Palestine, it's organic.

It's not systematic. It's organic and it's, sort of, you know, in the in the framework of of Elul's understanding of propaganda, it's anarchic because it's it's not being organized by any power group, any organization, any institution. It just it's literally coming from the grassroots, and it's just pervading on social media. Now there are pro Palestinian groups or or, you know, human rights groups or whatever. There are individual individual institutions, and they may be approaching how they do their awareness campaigns, with a propaganda, mentality of trying to spread the information, in the most effective the the most effective way possible to make it resonate as much as possible.

And there there's a there's a, an explicit propaganda element to that. But just the the the general, you know, private individual who is tweeting something or who's putting something on, you know, Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and and and resharing on TikTok or what have you, that's not systematic. And they don't have a particular goal in mind except to spread this and and and and correct people's understanding about the situation. They don't have they don't have a particular goal in mind except we we need these these atrocities to stop. You see what I mean?

So it's a bit different from the classical understanding of propaganda, in my opinion.

Yeah. This, I agree. I wanted to say that already, and especially in relation to, like, the deep propaganda, like, what it's you know, what feeds into propaganda or helps it helps it in its objectives is essentially the, you know, people have short term memory. Right? Like, he speaks about that aspect.

Essentially, like, the propagandist relies on this, you know, characteristic of individual, whereas, like, from the perspective of the Palestinians, you would want to play on the opposite. Right? Like, you would need that people have longer term memory than, you know, three posts above. Right? Or so that's, I think, the only thing that, like, is supporting the negative propaganda that people forget essentially.

Like, you know, two weeks ago, they tell you, yeah, it must have been a Hamas rocket that flew into the Shifa. We will investigate it. One well, you know, two weeks later, the it's all in crumbles. Like, everything destroyed, and, yeah, we did it. So what?

You know? Like, nobody even remembers that this happened. Right? Like, it's crazy.

Yeah. And and what happened to the tunnels and the the the tunnel headquarters underneath the Shifa Hospital? No one even mentions that anymore.

Yeah. Where where is the headquarters exactly?

Yeah. I mean, the the sad part of it is that people get used to the suffering of of of the Palestinians. It is like they formulate an image in their minds, and they just say to themselves, okay. This isn't news anymore. It is just reality.

So it is as if they need to be killed more and more for the world to care. It I I I mean, I'm I'm sickened by it.

Every study that has ever been done shows that the longer and more often a an adult human being is exposed to an image, the less they have empathy or sympathy for that which they're being continually exposed to. So, the powers that be understand this. These are the kind of people who run the studies so that they can tailor their propaganda to the results of studies. So they inundate, they flood the media with these images on an hourly basis knowing that the ultimate result will be to desensitize people to what is being done, not cause them to have more empathy for the suffering, and and that's the way it actually works.

Well, there's another and I I think Selma has posted a few a few quotes. Another element of propaganda that perhaps we could talk about, which has to do with different interpretations of factual events or, you know, real events and how how, you know, the propagandists who spin the narrative do it. So maybe, somehow, you'd like to contribute a little bit to that discussion. How do you view it yourself?

This is the thing. As I'm reading it, I am absorbing the information and find myself frustrated that I don't have simultaneously practical application of these points that are raised in the book. That's what I am experiencing in my reading of the book. So I'm a little handicapped in in elaborating further other than highlighting the points that I have in my notes. Okay.

I'm sorry. Yeah.

No problem. I'm done. Well, I mean, if anybody has some some examples, may maybe we we could focus on those. Feel free to share.

If I can add, I mean, he talks about a little bit sorry, Shahid. I'm sorry.

Go on. Go on.

I I mean, in the book, he talks about how, like, you know, Hitler talks about talked about, you know, his intentions his good intentions when he actually had plans for war. You know? So there's a couple of examples that he cites in the book. You know? If you intend to do some to do something, but, you you know, publicly, you must claim, you know, you must say things that are alluding to peace and, you know, and and harmony, but you you do something that is nefarious in the background.

And then when the opportunity presents itself, you just act on your actual plan and then put the blame on the other side, so to speak. You know, I I this is just basic I'm I'm not saying this in the way it's supposed to be presented, I'm sure, you know, but this is what I'm understanding. So I feel really like a child, you know, being taught what pop you know, how the world works, you know, when I'm reading this book. At almost 50, I feel this way. So, anyway, I'll I'll let Shahid speak.

No. I was just gonna say I was looking at the thing that you put in the in the discussion, the problem factuality. It's well known that the veracity and exactness are important elements in advertising. The customer, one, cannot verify falsified truth, inconclusive presentation of facts, silence to pervert the facts by modifying their context, innuendo, obvious conclusion by cleverly presented truth, or sorry. Yeah.

Presented truth. This the all of this seems to me, very apt with regards to the propaganda, negative propaganda, black propaganda, that has been the the campaign that has been waged against the Arab states, since October 7, and if not before, but particularly since October 7. All of these apply. You have people, putting out information, so called information, that may may have some element of truth in it, but it's also the kind of thing that's very difficult or cumbersome to try to verify or to, invalidate, to prove wrong, to debunk. And it also activates, inherent, long standing prejudices people have, especially among Muslims.

We generally have a hostility towards the Gulf States. We generally have a a a sort of a a feeling of that they're hypocrites and that they're puppets of the West and so on. So that that's just very easily activated without people even bothering to verify if any of this is true because we're just primed to believe it. And and and as I said, they they will the the the they'll present something that in and of itself means nothing. But because of the the the pre existing prejudices, it means everything to us.

And it verifies it verifies and validates our prejudices and our and our, suspicions. I mean, like, this this little section that you put up here, this this very much describes the the nature of the the slanderous and defamatory propaganda campaign that has been waged against Saudi Arabia and The UAE and The Gulf States in general.

Instead, where where does this come from? Because I've never had it. I've never felt it, but, I fully recognize that this is actually dominant in Muslim people. I I where does this antipathy toward the Khadij come from?

I think it it comes from looking up to the West and then taking instruction from the West because this is essentially Western propaganda. And if you're a person who's

Yeah. No. No. Go on. Go on.

Sorry. Sorry to interrupt.

That's That's it.

No. No. Go ahead. I'm done. That's pretty much what I wanted to say.

That's all.

I think I think that that it's a number of elements are involved in it. One of them is the the fact that, it's it's ironic because I think part of it is actually tied to the Islamic resurgence that was in fact, largely funded by Saudi Arabia and the so called Wahhabi movement, there was a resurgence of interest in Islam in the Syrah and so on. And I think that, ironically, Muslims, because of their, partial knowledge that they got about the si'ra and about our history, we have a very high bar for leadership, in terms of and the Sahaba and the Khulafar Rashidin, and some of the stories that we've heard about our past, we have a very, high bar, and unrealistically perhaps high bar, for leadership. I think that's one element. And then we also assign a very high bar of, ethics and principles and morality to the Jazir al Arab, to the Arabian Peninsula because it's the land of the of Makkah and Medina.